Cold Start Stalling

For about a month I've been battling a cold start issue.
First start of the day usually about 2 deg but whatever the temp is the B1250 fires and stops in about 2 seconds.  Hitting the button again without doing anything else sees her settling into a regular idle with no other issues until the next cold start.

Any ideas?

That's interesting 2WA.  For the three years I lived in Canberra with the Bandit it did that every morning  when starting in the winter months (that's six months in anyone else's calendar).  I thought it was just normal so never mentioned it (odd now that I think about that).  It always needed a second press of the starter. Mind you, Canberra's winters produce overnight temps down to minus double digits so I never gave it a second thought.  Just a cold starting thing?

Are you hitting the tit straight up or waiting for a bit so the bike does it's thing first.
Wait until the gauges do their thing, the little motors stop and then add 3-5 seconds before hitting the go button and see if that works.

Another simple and oft forgotten thing is the battery and it's connects - is the battery in good nik and the terminal tight (also check the connects at the earth points around the bike and where the big wire attaches at the starter

Have always wanted for pumps and guages to stop mate. I haven't investigated wiring or connections because the second start works fine and it literally is a couple of seconds after the initial firing

In Canberra, mine was always started on the first attempt after the fuel pressurised and the gauges settled.  I wouldn't worry.  I don't live in Canberra now and 62,000kms later mine now starts first go within a micro-second of hitting the starter (and I have not changed the battery or anything else).  It's definitely NOT the starter motor going Chris if that's what you might be thinking.

Just out of interest, how many k's on her mate? I'm wondering if there is a link between cold overnight temps and fuel pump failure.  Grover had two pumps replaced under warranty (very low k's on the bike) and he lived in Canberra. Nearly all of my 40,000kms was done in the three years I lived in Canberra (and the pump failed at that point).  Just a thought - maybe nothing in it.

40,000km and some change Dave. It is due for plugs next service.  The pump crossed my mind but it still does 7k in top gear and still pulling so there's fuel there. 

Some googling tonight suggested tps adjustment which is worth doing as it's never been checked but doesn't really explain the issue I dont think because the engine and even plugs are still cold on the second hit.

I'm not overly worried.  It's annoying more than anything else. EFI shouldn't do that.

Ewok1958 wrote:That's interesting 2WA.  For the three years I lived in Canberra with the Bandit it did that every morning  when starting in the winter months (that's six months in anyone else's calendar).  I thought it was just normal so never mentioned it (odd now that I think about that).  It always needed a second press of the starter. Mind you, Canberra's winters produce overnight temps down to minus double digits so I never gave it a second thought.  Just a cold starting thing?

Stalled after initial start. 

In Canberra, mine was always started on the first attempt after the fuel pressurised and the gauges settled.  I wouldn't worry.  I don't live in Canberra now and 62,000kms later mine now starts first go within a micro-second of hitting the starter (and I have not changed the battery or anything else).  It's definitely NOT the starter motor going Chris if that's what you might be thinking.

Didn't stall?

I'm confused, Ewok.   

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2WA.

At cold temps, like 2c, I imagine that fuel atomization is not super efficient,  the air extra dense. 
I would put it down to Suzuki fuel mapping for cold start not being calibrated for such cold climes. Built for the Australian market,  Suzuki probably calibrated for a bit warmer of a cold start.  
Secondaries removed, I presume, could also affect the air/fuel mix. 
I would not be worried about it, personally.

Sorry. That is, mine was always attempted to be started by pressing the starter button after the fuel pressurised and the gauges settled. It didn't start (ever in winter sub-zero temps) on the first press of the starter button, ie wait a few seconds and hit the starter a second time, then presto. Same thing as 2WA is now experiencing. Sorry for the confusion.

Easy fix 2wa......  Move to northern Nsw

Jimcoleman wrote:Easy fix 2wa......  Move to northern Nsw

Still gets cold over night up there Jim.

Might have to move to big red or big green to fix it

Put an old doona over the bike at night.  I'm serious.

I wouldn't be concerned. If you were on a carb bike you'd have much worse starting issues in the cold. My wife's Crf230 takes 15 minutes and multiple restarts before its up to running temp and idles on its own.

Im not overly concerned lads but this is its 7th winter and by all records not a real cold one.
Its just something it doesn't do normally.

Mine has done this most mornings less than 10 degrees

2wheelsagain wrote:

Jimcoleman wrote:Easy fix 2wa......  Move to northern Nsw

Still gets cold over night up there Jim.

Yep, bloody cold! Still no frost tho!   

Sounds like a fuel pressure issue...

SVDon wrote:Sounds like a fuel pressure issue...

Why's that?

Hmmm, I wonder what happened to my update to this post.  

It was supposed to read  "Sounds like a fuel pressure issue, or a fuel enricher circuit problem, more likely the latter.

The FI bikes have and fuel enricher circuit, basically the FI version of a choke.  The symptoms sound like the same thing that happens when you try a cold start on a carburreted engine without using the choke, then remember to turn it on the second time you try starting it.

Only with an FI bike, it happens through the miracle of modern electronics.  So, my guess is that either the enricher mechanism isn't supplying the rich mixture needed for a start in cold conditions on a timely basis,  or there isn't sufficient fuel pressure right away, maybe a failing fuel pump.  

Of course, this is just my scientific wild-ass guess,  and I'm probably full of shit.    

SVDon wrote:Hmmm, I wonder what happened to my update to this post.  

It was supposed to read  "Sounds like a fuel pressure issue, or a fuel enricher circuit problem, more likely the latter.

The FI bikes have and fuel enricher circuit, basically the FI version of a choke.  The symptoms sound like the same thing that happens when you try a cold start on a carburreted engine without using the choke, then remember to turn it on the second time you try starting it.

Only with an FI bike, it happens through the miracle of modern electronics.  So, my guess is that either the enricher mechanism isn't supplying the rich mixture needed for a start in cold conditions on a timely basis,  or there isn't sufficient fuel pressure right away, maybe a failing fuel pump.  

Of course, this is just my scientific wild-ass guess,  and I'm probably full of shit.    

Well mate that reads as much less of a stab in the dark than your original contribution
I have a suspicion its a mapping issue so you could be onto something.
It was 10c when I left for work this morning and she caught on the first hit and settled into a 1500rpm idle which slowly dropped back over the 2 minutes it took to put my lid and gloves on and lock the carage and kick the neighbours dog.
All perfectly normal for a cold (engine) start.

You might be onto something, though I don't think its a faulty component or even a bad map.  

There are several sensors around the motor and fuel injection system that fed info back to the ECU.  These are mostly resistance based.

IMO when you first start on a cold morning, a combination of a lower battery voltage due to the overnight chill, plus one or more of these sensors reading too high (or too low depending on its thermal characteristic) causes the ECU to splutter. i.e. the sensor reading is outside the mapping capability. However during that couple of seconds it was running, there has been enough current flow through the sensor to get it out of its "shock cold" state and back into a more normal operating condition.  Then when you start a second time everything is normal.

Another thing is that I don't seem to remember mine doing the two-step start after the PC-V was installed with its different map.

Anyway, I don't think it is anything to worry about, but keep an eye on the battery condition as cold winters will chew them up faster than in warmer climates.

barry_mcki wrote:Anyway, I don't think it is anything to worry about, but keep an eye on the battery condition as cold winters will chew them up faster than in warmer climates.

Battery is almost 4yrs old but still spins her over quick smart.
The bike is used 3 ish days a week and most weekends and if not used for a period of time is on the C-Tek charger for an hour or so before riding. The charger builds to 7 lights within about 20 mins indicating to me the battery is still holding plenty of charge.

I think from now on I will just call work and say I cant come in unless its 8c

I only have the cold start problems during winter when I run 98 petrol.  That's why I only run 95 in winter. 

It's got to do the the different blends of petrol.  Summer and Winter.

http://www.environment.gov.au/archive/fuelquality/publications/pubs/fqrcha-1.pdf

Looking at it they use more butane to blend the fuel in winter than summer due to emissions.

Another option is that get your hands on a TEKA or YOSHI BOX and up your idle fuel.

Naw76 wrote:I only have the cold start problems during winter when I run 98 petrol.  That's why I only run 95 in winter. 

It's got to do the the different blends of petrol.  Summer and Winter.

http://www.environment.gov.au/archive/fuelquality/publications/pubs/fqrcha-1.pdf

Looking at it they use more butane to blend the fuel in winter than summer due to emissions.

Another option is that get your hands on a TEKA or YOSHI BOX and up your idle fuel.

Well this reply got me thinking.
I did have a couple of tanks of 98 at the time this was ocurring.
Its been just as cold since and i'm using the normal 91 and there's been no stalling.
I sometimes run 98 if on a longer tour and in this case I put 98 in by accident because thats what the Storm uses.
Thanks Naw76

My 1250 does the same. 
Fires up then stops straight away.
Next start it is ok and idles?????