Another Power Commander question

Bhoffo Tue 07 Aug 2012, 8:20 pm

First topic message reminder :

I've had my bike back from the Suzuki mechanics now for a few weeks after the replacement of the fuel pump/filter, rebalancing of the throttle bodies, sorting out the TPS and synchronizing the butterflys... (don't ask why.. Evil or Very Mad

)

So now the thing goes like a rocket however down low and especially noticeable in heavy traffic, its quite lumpy and tends to 'hunt'. Been back to the Suzuki shop a few times and they've adjusted the mixture with their 'Yoshi' box - maybe its a little better but not as 'smoooooth' as I think it was before all the drama.. Today they said it's about as good as they can get it without installing a Commander unit..

Back home and rang a nearly local bike mechanic and told him the story. He asked how many k's was on it (41000) and said that at that age a Power Commander would be the solution.. He suggested buying one off the net and then he'd install and 'map' it for a further $400.

So my questions are; What's the consensus?? Is it worthwhile? Is a PC going to be able to correct the rough running down low?

Also, which model PC should you get? (there appears to be quite a few on the market) and to get the best deal, Where from?

geekay007 Sun 19 Aug 2012, 3:02 pm

Reardo wrote:My IMO, PC is better because of it's ability to remove fuel.
My Tuner got me a 10hp jump in mid range RPM with up to -15% fuel from Suzuki's map.
I don't think the TFI can do that? Which means (To me) it's a compromise.

True it is a compromise. The Power Commander has the ability to do a lot more, but needs to be set up properly. When the technician removed 15% fuel in the mid-rpm, did he do this with an air-fuel meter? I hope he did and that your bike isn't running lean over that RPM range. Most of time, it's too little fuel that's the problem. Dale Walker did about 300 dyno runs to get his settings and he says that he was able to maintain 13:1 (give or take) air:fuel ratio across the rev band. It may run a tad rich but I'd prefer that than too lean. Anyhow that's my two bob's.

Rick Sat 25 Aug 2012, 5:48 pm

I run the PCV with Auto tune module, program the AF ratio and go have fun Smile

Dekenai Sun 26 Aug 2012, 8:08 am

It may vary a little with individual bikes. My own experience is that I had a TFI with (what I was told were) the DW stage 2 settings, and that made about 116 RWHP (on what I think is a fairly ‘scroogie’ dyno). I had it dyno tuned with the TFI and got it up to 120 RWHP, but the tuner was unhappy with the fueling in the low to mid-range where he reckoned he needed to remove fuel. This seemed to translate to some surging (at least I think that’s what it was) and occasionally a minor hesitation accelerating after fully closing the throttle on the way into corner and then opening it up on the way out.

So put in a PC-V (they are not listed as compatible with <year K9 but actually they are compatible with all years of 1250) and put that in (other changes were oil, and a set of iridium NGK’s). It initially made 118 with an off-the-shelf map and then when the custom map was completed it made a smidge under 128. Ran it at a trackday at Wakefield Park last Friday (freezing cold and nasty) and the fueling felt spot-on. Also rode Danbandit’s 1250, also stage with Arrow headers except he has a Yoshi R77 can (my 1250 has a Megacycle), his put up 136 RWHP using the TFI (he mentioned this to DW on Max Zuke and DW felt that the Dyno was a ‘generous’ one). Anyway, Danbandit’s 1250 felt very similar to how mine is now. So, while there is no doubt that excellent results may be achieved using the TFI in most cases, it didn’t happen with mine. Well, Gus now has that TFI, (or soon will have) and we will see how he makes out.

BTW, the dyno operator mentioned that he could only get a reasonable result by modifying the 5th gear map with the TFI, so we used the TRE to apply the 5th gear map to all gears. The 5th gear map is also used as the base for the custom map in the PC-V.

Anyway, here’s the curve from the first dyno run,

Another Power Commander question - Page 2 4-04-20128-26-42AM1

Another Power Commander question - Page 2 4-04-20128-26-42AM1

And here’s a pic of the map, as you can see there is quite a lot of fuel removed at low/mid-rpm part throttle,

Another Power Commander question - Page 2 20120821B1250

Another Power Commander question - Page 2 20120821B1250

The chart from the last run is at work so will have to post that tomorrow.

geekay007 Sun 26 Aug 2012, 11:17 am

You are probably right Dek, when it comes to the 5th gear map, although I haven't experimented removing the TRE to see what difference it makes. Maybe I'm one of the lucky ones, but my 1250S K7 runs beautifully with DW's Stage 2 settings. I really think the TRE (mine's a cheapo one set to 5th and neutral only) and can alone made a huge difference. The only complaint I have with Stage 2 is a drop in low down torque (1500-3500 rpm). From about 4000-8500 rpm, the pull is very strong.

Again I hope your dyno tuner guys checked the A:F ratio and didn't go too lean. It's easy to bump power up by going lean, but you risk damaging the engine. Also fuel has a lot to do with it. For some reason, my bike feels better when I use Mobil or Caltex fuel, and not so good when I use Shell. I think 95 octane is best for me, although I use 98 regularly for the injector cleaning effect.

When I fit the Arrow headers, I'll take the bike be dynoed.

Re-Cycled Sun 26 Aug 2012, 3:52 pm

Dekenai wrote:
Anyway, here’s the curve from the first dyno run, etc.

I think the interesting thing is that your tuner got rid of the dip around 8,000rpm that is is all of Dale Ws Dynos.

http://www.holeshot.com/dynocharts/dyno_bandit1250.html

Dekenai Mon 27 Aug 2012, 6:33 pm

Yeah I agree with you Peter, I decided somehow that it was to do with the secondaries but clearly not.

Anyhow here is the latest curve, question is why does it look like the rpm limiter is kicking in at about 9200 when in the first run it looks like it was 9500?

Another Power Commander question - Page 2 20120821B1250DynoRun-1

Another Power Commander question - Page 2 20120821B1250DynoRun-1

Dekenai Mon 27 Aug 2012, 6:51 pm

Sorry Bhoffo, may have hijacked the thread a little, (though still about what a PC can do for you). Don't know how mileage is a factor, bike has about 16000 Km now. Runs really well, don't think the torque is less stock anywhere. Brett (@ Motogarage) did the job for $350 (as you can see, it looks like he did 22 runs!) and the PC-V came from the states. Try http://www.solomotoparts.com/ or http://www.revzilla.com/sportbike-gear or http://www.jakewilson.com/ they are all great to deal with.

barry_mcki Wed 12 Sep 2012, 3:59 pm

Has the iPad App (actually Andriod is what I'm after) for the PC-V been developed yet ? There was some talk on a BWM site a year or two ago but can't find mention of it other than that one instance.

I've dropped Dynojet a line, but seeing they didn't even list Australia in their pull down screen I am not overly optomistic on their replay being forthcoming anytime soon.

barry_mcki Thu 13 Sep 2012, 7:00 am

Well my appologies to Dynojet, got a reply overnight, unfortunately it didn't help though. Here is the official word on their software on other platforms:

We only offer software compatible with Windows PC computers. There are no mobile or Mac applications available.

Let me know if you have any further questions.

Regards,

Chris Kelly
Dynojet Research Inc.
2191 Mendenhall Dr. Suite 105
North Las Vegas, NV 89081
1-800-992-4993

barry_mcki Tue 02 Oct 2012, 11:30 pm

Brett from MotoGarage in Mitchell (Canberra) finally had time to put the old girl on the dyno - however with the side car this proved to be an interesting project. A phone call to Jake (Jakes Performance) round the corner and we were rolling her up onto a car dyno with the left wheel jacked up so it was not interfering with the front roller. This put the bike on a little slope to the right, but not enough to mess the figures up to much, we may have been able to get 1 or 2 % better readings (remember I'm running a square car tire on the back not a round profile bike tire).

Another Power Commander question - Page 2 Img_2013

Another Power Commander question - Page 2 Img_2013

Another Power Commander question - Page 2 Img_2014

With a couple of safety straps and wheel chocks it was time to take her up into a rev range I have never been, yes the rev limiter does come in at 9500. With all the cooling fans in the shop hooked up she still managed to run a tad warm getting the (Bandit) fan to kick in a couple of times (I have a dash light hooked up to tell, it was too noisey to actually hear it).

The runs seem respectible to me, Brett thought the rear wheel size may have affected the max figure, but I have nothing to complain about, 125.6 hp, a smooth curve, and a relatively flat AFR around 13.0 over the rev range, not too shabby for hack. It was quiet interesting watching Brett and Jake work together doing the remapping, up here, down there etc to get the AFR flat. I haven't switched over to the AutoTune module yet, it's wired in and software enabled but I want to read up a little more on it first. Anyway here is the (only) copy of the runs, we were mainly interested in AFR and power, so no torque curve to show you today, maybe next time.

Another Power Commander question - Page 2 Dyno_t10

Another Power Commander question - Page 2 Dyno_t10

Another Power Commander question - Page 2 Dynoje10

geekay007 Wed 03 Oct 2012, 12:00 am

Hey Barry, didn't know they revved to 10900. Very Happy

I'd fire your mechanic! Basketball

barry_mcki Wed 03 Oct 2012, 1:34 am

This tuneup required Jake running the dyno and Brett running the Power Commander PC. There was no electronic connection between the dyno and the bike, just power (back wheel) and AFR (exhaust sensor). The bike was setup up at 5,000 in forth gear and this was programmed into the dyno. Subsequently it was always going to be out however we were aiming for good curves and highest power.

Another Power Commander question - Page 2 Img_2015

Another Power Commander question - Page 2 Img_2015

Believe me I was axiously watching the rev readout on the PC V screen on all runs, the rev limiter cut in every time at just over 9500, so happily it didn't go past this. The 10,900 was just what the dyno thought the bike was doing according to the speed of the rollers.

A bit of a strange way to do things, but no one ever said riding around on 3 wheels was normal. Smile

Dekenai Wed 03 Oct 2012, 7:57 am

Good stuff Barry, how's it feel riding her? Had mine at Eastern Creek on Monday doing the superbike school and it was xlent, restricted to 4th gear down the straight and was holding her at 6 or 7 thou with no hunting or surging,

Cheers

p.s. thanks for dropping off the spring pullers.

joblue Sun 15 Dec 2013, 4:23 pm

G'day kewwig, Can you tell me if the Dobeck TFI causes any problems with the gear shift indicator? I have a 2012 GSX1250fa Cheers wrote:Guys, a Yosh box is not a TFI/Power Commander. It is a plug in tuning device used by Suzuki dealers and tuners to re-program the stock ECU. It's unplugged afterwards.

It's hard to diagnose remotely as we don't know what the dealer has done to the ECU.

"Hunting" generally occurs because the throttle bodies aren't synced properly (each TB is flowing at a different rate), or the Air/Fuel ratio isn't optimal. An aftermarket pipe and filter can add to the lean running woes, although generally the ECU compensates. Some report success with an otherwise stock setup and a resistor bypassing the O2 sensor, but my own experience is that it doesn't make any difference my bum dyno could feel. The GSF1250 and GSX1250FA are renowned for low speed running issues, but it's not every bike (but my K8 used to do it)

Dale Walker (www.holeshot.com) sells the Dobeck TFI, and with his stage 1 and stage 2 settings, most of us who have done it have got much smoother running and a lot more power. The stock motor can be tuned really well to run smoothly. Secondary butterfly removal on an otherwise stock engine can help too BUT there's a lot of potential causes.

There's a few different ways to sync the TBs. One uses the Suzuki SDS software along with vacuum gauges, and most of us don't have access to that. The other uses a vacuum gauge and setting the bike into dealer mode with a switch (or bypass if you know what you are doing), and syncing with gauges. The last uses vacuum on the ISC switch, and there's a "new" way doing the rounds where the no. 4 vacuum line to the gauges (eg Morgan CarbTune) is cut, a "T" put in and that is used to pull vacuum in the ISC. I found doing that I have got the best sync and smoothest running, without disconnecting the ISC or putting the bike in dealer mode.

In other words, patience, a good set of vacuum gauges (I recommend Morgan carbtune), and you can achieve a lot.

Try removing the O2 bypass plug and reconnect the stock O2 sensor connector.

A GiPro won't make a lot of difference either way (the gear position indicator is handy though).

The best bet is doing some internet research, finding someone with a similar bike, and don't try and muck around with settings unless you have advice.

A PC and dyno tune should sort it, but my preference is Dale Walker's plug and play setup, and I have set this up on 3 GSF1250s now (2 X Stage 2, and one Stage 3 with headers) with complete success.

If you don't want to spend much, buy some gauges and check out the sticky on tuning the bike

Kaupy1962 Tue 17 Dec 2013, 12:00 am

Yoshi Box does not work on Suzuki Bandit with EFI as the ECU is 32bit. I built one and it was a total waste of time.

graham Tue 14 Jan 2014, 3:32 pm

Dobeck perfomance ejk kit includes o2 bypass plug $309 works for me easy to fit.Read my blog Graham

joblue Mon 10 Nov 2014, 9:13 am

kewwig wrote:Guys, a Yosh box is not a TFI/Power Commander. It is a plug in tuning device used by Suzuki dealers and tuners to re-program the stock ECU. It's unplugged afterwards.

It's hard to diagnose remotely as we don't know what the dealer has done to the ECU.

"Hunting" generally occurs because the throttle bodies aren't synced properly (each TB is flowing at a different rate), or the Air/Fuel ratio isn't optimal. An aftermarket pipe and filter can add to the lean running woes, although generally the ECU compensates. Some report success with an otherwise stock setup and a resistor bypassing the O2 sensor, but my own experience is that it doesn't make any difference my bum dyno could feel. The GSF1250 and GSX1250FA are renowned for low speed running issues, but it's not every bike (but my K8 used to do it)

Dale Walker (www.holeshot.com) sells the Dobeck TFI, and with his stage 1 and stage 2 settings, most of us who have done it have got much smoother running and a lot more power. The stock motor can be tuned really well to run smoothly. Secondary butterfly removal on an otherwise stock engine can help too BUT there's a lot of potential causes.

There's a few different ways to sync the TBs. One uses the Suzuki SDS software along with vacuum gauges, and most of us don't have access to that. The other uses a vacuum gauge and setting the bike into dealer mode with a switch (or bypass if you know what you are doing), and syncing with gauges. The last uses vacuum on the ISC switch, and there's a "new" way doing the rounds where the no. 4 vacuum line to the gauges (eg Morgan CarbTune) is cut, a "T" put in and that is used to pull vacuum in the ISC. I found doing that I have got the best sync and smoothest running, without disconnecting the ISC or putting the bike in dealer mode.

In other words, patience, a good set of vacuum gauges (I recommend Morgan carbtune), and you can achieve a lot.

Try removing the O2 bypass plug and reconnect the stock O2 sensor connector.

A GiPro won't make a lot of difference either way (the gear position indicator is handy though).

The best bet is doing some internet research, finding someone with a similar bike, and don't try and muck around with settings unless you have advice.

A PC and dyno tune should sort it, but my preference is Dale Walker's plug and play setup, and I have set this up on 3 GSF1250s now (2 X Stage 2, and one Stage 3 with headers) with complete success.

If you don't want to spend much, buy some gauges and check out the sticky on tuning the bike

Mate thanks for all your information I have just fitted the Dale Walker stage one for a after market slip/on and the bike runs really well. smooth idle and stronger through the rev range. I also bought the Morgan carb balancer but haven't used it yet, to busy with other project

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