Starter motor gone, will this work ?, humour me

It looks like my bike has the dreaded problem with the starter where the magnets come loose making starting difficult or impossible.
I'm 99.9% sure it's the issue as I bought a new battery which worked a couple of times, and I had to jump start it and it still struggled.  The starter has been making funny noises for a few months now.

Everyone knows the starters are exxy, $850 apparently from the dealer.  Can probably land one from USA for maybe $500.

Now I have not yet pulled mine apart to look at the extent of the damage, but I have a plan (I have a second bike, so can afford some time to get her back on the road).

Pic of GSF1250/GSX1250 starter from kewwig's site (thanks)
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-kkBE-l5M_Q0/UyalnGU4CKI/AAAAAAAABwc/euBd3EAsZB4/s640/blogger-image--522141592.jpg

Ebay Suzuki starter off a quad.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-Starter-Motor-Suzuki-ATV-LT-F400-F-KING-QUAD-2008-2010-/161373160505?pt=Motors_ATV_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2592970439

To me, the housings look very similar, would it be possible to take the front housing section with new magnets and bolt it into my existing starter ?.  I know there are a lot of unknowns here, and while externally they look similar, they may be different internally, or sizes may be different.

Is it worth a shot ?.  Anyone think I could make one good starter out of my existing one plus the donor starter ? Or am I completely bonkers

Thanks.
Rob.

It's not a huge outlay ,might be worth a try ....................or 2WA got one from the wreckers ( not sure if it was a later model ??? ) & had no more dramas .
Does the firm selling them have a listing for a bandit , or do they know if it's been done ?

Why not ask your local auto electrician for advise, i recently had my outboard motor starter totally reconditioned for approx $150.00, a new replacement was $500.00.

I could be worth a shot if your willing to outlay the $85 odd dollars for the attempt knowing that it could be a lost cause.
Remembering that the armature could be not only a different diameter but also a different length. Bolt holes could be in different position and not forgetting that the overall power output might be much less than the original giving not enough torque to turn over the bandit motor effectively.

I think I paid $150 for my used one. It was fine when I sold the bike 4yrs later although I did have a doubt about 12 months ago that seemed to "fix" itself.
In my search I found the 1250 starter is specific to the 1250. No other Suzuki item would bolt on. They may have the same guts though.
Its a simplish job to do if you have small hands. The shop that did mine didnt charge anything. I had just bought tyres off them though.

Sorted, went to findapart.com.au and located a dealer in wa who freighted me a starter for 200 delivered.

The second hand starter is in and the bike is going again.

I've started pulling the old one apart and regluing the magnets on with jbweld.  I'll report back once this process is complete and advise if it's a workable solution (even with some smashed magnets)

If the magnetic pieces are broken and not just loose, I think you will find that just glueing them back will not work. The starter motor is designed with a certain "size" magnetic field for it to turn the armature when the electical power is applied to the windings.

When a magnet is cleanly cut in half (i.e. produces two new smaller magnets) and these two magnets touch each other at the cut, the magnetic fields of the two magnets can align and help (reinforce) each other, essentially producing an overall magnetic field of slightly less strength as was the original "whole" magnet. However, with a jagged break the faces of the broken pieces are made up of angles that are all over the place (not the clean cut as mentioned above) and the corresponding magnetic fields are all over the palce as well. What happens is that these mutiple facing fields actually can interfere with each other, producing an overall resultant weaker magnetic pattern.

IMHO this weaker magnetic field will be too small to turn the armature, so I doubt the starter will turn over one revolution out on the bench with no load, let alone setup in the bike trying to start the Bandit.

Let us know how it turns out.

barry_mcki wrote:If the magnetic pieces are broken and not just loose, I think you will find that just glueing them back will not work.  The starter motor is designed with a certain "size" magnetic field for it to turn the armature when the electical power is applied to the windings.  

When a magnet is cleanly cut in half (i.e. produces two new smaller magnets) and these two magnets touch each other at the cut, the magnetic fields of the two magnets can align and help (reinforce) each other, essentially producing an overall magnetic field of slightly less strength as was the original "whole" magnet.  However, with a jagged break the faces of the broken pieces are made up of angles that are all over the place (not the clean cut as mentioned above) and the corresponding magnetic fields are all over the palce as well.  What happens is that these mutiple facing fields actually can interfere with each other, producing an overall resultant weaker magnetic pattern.  

IMHO this weaker magnetic field will be too small to turn the armature, so I doubt the starter will turn over one revolution out on the bench with no load, let alone setup in the bike trying to start the Bandit.

Let us know how it turns out.

As usual Barry makes a lot of technical sense.
Here's a pic of mine. At least 1 seriously cracked but all unglued and out of place. 

Barry, I suspected the same with the smashed magnets, but mine had two magnets that probably had one fifth of each of their area broken off.  I didn't attempt to reglue the broken magnet sections, I just binned those.

I'll take some pics after I've glued in the final magnet and before I reassemble. I figure it will work still as it still turned with electrical current even with every magnet loose and some were sitting with their n/s poles attracted.

2wheels: that's pretty much what mine looked like when I pulled the cover off for the first time.

Suzuki should be recalling these starters or at least issuing free replacement parts. They must have used clag glue rather than something decent

Still don't like the chances of it working Buford, the magnetic field of the now shorter magnets are going to be weaker than before,  and they will not be the same as the opposing fields of the non-broken magnets.

A DC (starter motor) depends on the electromagent of the windings around the armature being created (and collapsed) inside the permanent magnetic fields of the case magnets.



This is a 4-pole case magnet, ours is a 6 pole, but the same principle that the magnetic field is setup between adjacent magnets.  Pity Suzuki used paper glue insted of screws like shown here to hold the magnets to the case:


How the electromagnet is setup via the coils around the armature:


IMHO having an unbalanced permanent magentic field on one part of the motor would either not be strong enough to turn the Bandit engine, or would run very (and possiblely dangerously) unbalanced.  But I'm only guessing, it might just work, nothing ventured as they say.  Just be safe when you first turn it over.

This electrickery is too testical for me........

Might be easier to add a kick starter!

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzDYD3rP5qM1MEdadEJESnQwQU0&authuser=0
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzDYD3rP5qM1cHozOFF4dzZXQVE&authuser=0
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzDYD3rP5qM1dEVnSjQ1MkFZUkU&authuser=0

Edit:Not sure how you link an image directly to a G drive file, the original post seemed to work for me, but not anywhere else.

Put it all back together, it turns ok manually, but I have not yet applied any power to it (will try on Sunday when I'm home).

Maybe magnets in good condition from stuffed starters might be worth some money

buford_t_justice wrote:


Put it all back together, it turns ok manually, but I have not yet applied any power to it (will try on Sunday when I'm home).

Maybe magnets in good condition from stuffed starters might be worth some money

Have another crack at the photos BTJ. I cant correct the links as admin as they're just a google user reference not a link to a pic (3)

Buford_T _jpegs





Works for me, how about you guys.

Re-Cycled wrote:Buford_T _jpegs





Works for me, how about you guys.

Nup, just a link to this 

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/UnbtUPgFaqt-VWXajPLOV5EyeHQRhnT1nyZ5NO0TOxmYwgKZ4Nnjhn12CS-lC_GswztXGbvoRMA=w1245-h659

Try uploading the photos to Tinypic.com or another host site

Yep ....links work for me (I'm using chrome if that makes any difference )

paul wrote:(I'm using chrome if that makes any difference )

so am I

~ ADMIN~

Seeing as there are some issues viewing BTJ's starter photos I have put them on my photobucket.com account.






BTJ if you dont wish for these to be made public please PM me and I'll remove them from my PB account.

Suzuki should see them and feel ashamed they haven't recalled affected bikes for a free replacement.

2wheels, thanks mate.. I couldn't be bothered joining an image hosting site. Will report back tomorrow how the motor goes on the bench

That's better

It might be worth someone sending Suzuki Australia a few pictures and mention a few people on this site have had failed starters along with blocked fuel pumps. Poor engineering in my mind

reddog wrote:It might be worth someone sending Suzuki Australia a few pictures and mention a few people on this site have had failed starters along with blocked fuel pumps. Poor engineering in my mind

There are lots of reports of early 1250 starter failures in the UK and Suzuki are well aware of the issue.
The fuel pump issue is probably harder to pin on a design or engineering fault as its set off by the clogged filter so they can always claim they have no control over the fuel used but the starter failure is down to a design fault that the owner has no control over.