Aussie Riders Ticketed for Tinted Helmet Visors?

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Aussie Riders Ticketed for Tinted Helmet Visors?

Post  SVDon on Wed 10 Dec 2014, 8:21 am

First topic message reminder :

WTF is this?   Happy we don't have this kind of hassle in the USA.  (Yet, anyway)


http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/helmet-hassles-bikers-accuse-police-of-giving-out-petty-visor-fines/story-fni0fit3-1227147660982?nk=9d6806ec0ff022966146ead44b9674de
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Re: Aussie Riders Ticketed for Tinted Helmet Visors?

Post  Chook on Thu 11 Dec 2014, 5:19 pm

seems legit.............

Wink
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Re: Aussie Riders Ticketed for Tinted Helmet Visors?

Post  paul on Thu 11 Dec 2014, 6:48 pm

My HJC is stamped HJC ........exceeds VESC-8 . Bought from a bike shop not a cheap  Fleebay knock-off. ( I may or may not have removed a sticker , I don't remember ............I'm getting old & forgetful )
Gees Barry , you're not an advisor for Vic Police are you  Razz  Laughing

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Re: Aussie Riders Ticketed for Tinted Helmet Visors?

Post  barry_mcki on Thu 11 Dec 2014, 7:26 pm

@paul wrote:My HJC is stamped HJC ........exceeds VESC-8 . Bought from a bike shop not a cheap  Fleebay knock-off. ( I may or may not have removed a sticker , I don't remember ............I'm getting old & forgetful )
Gees Barry , you're not an advisor for Vic Police are you  Razz  Laughing

Worked for the Federal Government for 18 years, you get to smell BS pretty quickly spending that much time in the one department......  Razz

The VESC-8 info is stamped on a lot of US manufactured helmets, I found this little tit-bit on what it means, loved the part where it says the organisation is now defunct but the standard is still used, sounds very much like our mob  Rolling Eyes  

If you look carefully at the shield on your AGV/KBC/Sparx/Shoei, you will see a small piece of text that reads "EXCEEDS VESC-8." The other day, after months of procrastination, I finally got around to figuring what that cryptic thing means. VESC was an American Vehicle Safety organisation, and the VESC-8 is a standard they created that sets the norm for protective eye gear. While the organisation itself is defunct now, its standard has been adopted more or less everywhere.

I am unable to source the document itself, but I chanced upon a study [pdf]that compares various helmet standards and therein I found that VESC-8 fires a 44.2 gm metal dart at the protective eye gear (visor) from a height of 4.27 metres. If the dart penetrates the shield, it fails the test. SNELL, meanwhile, fire 1 gram, 5mm dia led pellets at a shield at 500 kph (true!). The pellets are allowed to leave bumps in the visor but if one penetrates... failed. Similarly, the ECE 22.05 and DOT also have some sort of performance criteria for a helmet shield, which can lead to an entire helmet flunking certification if the shield alone fails.


Full text here

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Re: Aussie Riders Ticketed for Tinted Helmet Visors?

Post  Re-Cycled on Thu 11 Dec 2014, 8:04 pm

@SVDon wrote:WTF is this?   Happy we don't have this kind of hassle in the USA.  (Yet, anyway)


http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/helmet-hassles-bikers-accuse-police-of-giving-out-petty-visor-fines/story-fni0fit3-1227147660982?nk=9d6806ec0ff022966146ead44b9674de
That's because you guys are better organised and know that the Government answers to you. Here we just bitch about it and think something will change. Sad

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Re: Aussie Riders Ticketed for Tinted Helmet Visors?

Post  spanna on Thu 11 Dec 2014, 8:15 pm

I'm telling you guys, visors with only stickers are NOT APPROVED.
The reasoning is that anyone can get stickers made and or apply stickers to alternate visors (as can be seen in a pic in a prev post)

Most of the highway robbers are clued up on these regs, unlike the uniform boys.
I am telling you the guy that inspected my lid was wise to all the tricks / he looked inside the helmet & for the stamping on visor.
Stamping is not new thing, I looked at avisor from 3 years ago & stamp was there.
The stamping should reas AS1609 LIC. xxxxxxx  This is the license no given to the manufacturer for the specific component tested.
My cheap AGV K3 lid that is over 3 yo has it on both lid & visor  & my Arai also.
The AGV tinted visor I bought for the K3 has nothing as it has not undergone testing.
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Re: Aussie Riders Ticketed for Tinted Helmet Visors?

Post  spanna on Thu 11 Dec 2014, 8:19 pm

Also, That tinted visor in the ebay pic that is stamped is not legit!
marked as CLEAR & its tinted, I bet when it arrives there won't even be a stamp!
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Re: Aussie Riders Ticketed for Tinted Helmet Visors?

Post  BanditDave on Fri 12 Dec 2014, 7:06 am

Does this mean my new Aldi helmet (with the sticker) is not legal?

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Re: Aussie Riders Ticketed for Tinted Helmet Visors?

Post  barry_mcki on Fri 12 Dec 2014, 7:48 am

I'm trying to get a copy of AS 1698:1981 as well as the 1982 Ammendment - from what I've read so far, the standard does not mandate stamping on the visor, but it is up to you to prove you have legal equipment, that could be difficult on the side of the road without the label and/or stamp.

BTW, love this photo:


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Re: Aussie Riders Ticketed for Tinted Helmet Visors?

Post  SVDon on Fri 12 Dec 2014, 12:10 pm

@barry_mcki wrote:I'm trying to get a copy of AS 1698:1981 as well as the 1982 Ammendment - from what I've read so far, the standard does not mandate stamping on the visor, but it is up to you to prove you have legal equipment, that could be difficult on the side of the road without the label and/or stamp.

BTW, love this photo:



Looks like the coppers got a good deal on BMW's.   rabbit
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Re: Aussie Riders Ticketed for Tinted Helmet Visors?

Post  SuzySuzuki on Fri 12 Dec 2014, 2:34 pm

As I mentioned on the FB page, I have a tinted Shoei  visor, with warnings imprinted in the plastic, stating it is not warranted shatterproof, and if tinted, for daytime use only. As far as im concerned, that's warning enough. ive never worn it after dusk, (actually never worn it after 6pm) and switch to the original. So far, no police have pulled me up for it, thinking they have bigger problems that to hassle a little old lady. Smile

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Re: Aussie Riders Ticketed for Tinted Helmet Visors?

Post  paul on Fri 12 Dec 2014, 6:41 pm

@SuzySuzuki wrote:As I mentioned on the FB page, I have a tinted Shoei  visor, with warnings imprinted in the plastic, stating it is not warranted shatterproof, and if tinted, for daytime use only. As far as im concerned, that's warning enough. ive never worn it after dusk, (actually never worn it after 6pm) and switch to the original. So far, no police have pulled me up for it, thinking they have bigger problems that to hassle a little old lady. Smile
" Little old lady " .................@ 48 ! ................Uh Oh , where does that leave me  pale affraid Laughing Laughing

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visors

Post  ghost1 on Sat 13 Dec 2014, 5:00 pm

I seem to remember seeing a picture of about 4-5 police motorcycles stationary with helmets on their seats and they had dark visors on them. I am not sure wether it was a training group on their course or not. I hoping someone else might remember where the photo was from and send it on to the police traffic branch and enlighten them in their own standards. Do helmets with flip down dark visors comply and if so where is the sticker to prove it, or is it covered by the external sticker. What about pin lock visors??????

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Re: Aussie Riders Ticketed for Tinted Helmet Visors?

Post  2wheelsagain on Sun 14 Dec 2014, 7:11 am

It's got nothing to do with tint. So built in "sunnies" comply. 
I took extra notice of the police party ad last night and the cop on the bike has a clear visor on as he rockets off after the car.

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Re: Aussie Riders Ticketed for Tinted Helmet Visors?

Post  barry_mcki on Sun 14 Dec 2014, 8:14 am

I'd say there would have been an edict directing all (Vic) police biker riders to ensure they have the correct clear visors prior to the current blitz (getting a hold of that piece of paper would be worth a mint to defence lawyers  Cool   ).  However since the AS 1609 standard was introduced in 1981 with little to no enforcement, or worse actually being disregard by the police up until now, there would be thousands of photos and film clips of police riding round with tinted visors.

There is something in contract law terms that says if you accept a method/process/etc even though it is not or sometimes against the actual contract, then that action is deamed to be the normal practice and that neither party can be held responsible if later they try to return to the contract wording - or something to that effect. Whilst contract law is a long way from road regulations, if it can be shown that the police have not enforced this standard and at times themselves disregarded it, how can the public be expected to now be called to task, the police themselves have perpetuated the "normal" practice.

If I were to have to attend court over one of these non-compliant helmet charges, part of my defence would be the hundereds of images of (Aust) police bike riders wearing tinted visors, the "good for the goose" type defence, might not get you off, but may lesson the penality.

But being the weaked knee person I am, my tinted visor has now been retired and the virtually brand new clear visor refitted along with a new pair of glasses ordered with the transition tint that goes dark during the day.  Embarassed

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Re: Aussie Riders Ticketed for Tinted Helmet Visors?

Post  Hammy on Sun 14 Dec 2014, 8:32 am

I was talking at some length to a mc cop on Friday while we both waited for our bikes to be serviced.  I mentioned this topic, and his reply. "Bloody wankers" . We don't bother with crap like that.  Another interesting topic we spoke about was the soon to be introduced Lane Splitting. Coming in on the 1st of January. We agreed on one thing. That  when there is a smallish group, say 5-6 riders. If they all try to split down the same lane they may end up stuck in between cars when the lights change.  Recipe for disaster.  How's that going down in Vic ?  I heard that they revoked it in SA.   Sorry to drift off topic.

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Re: Aussie Riders Ticketed for Tinted Helmet Visors?

Post  madmax on Sun 14 Dec 2014, 9:52 am

@Hammy wrote:I was talking at some length to a mc cop on Friday while we both waited for our bikes to be serviced.  I mentioned this topic, and his reply. "Bloody wankers" . We don't bother with crap like that.  Another interesting topic we spoke about was the soon to be introduced Lane Splitting. Coming in on the 1st of January. We agreed on one thing. That  when there is a smallish group, say 5-6 riders. If they all try to split down the same lane they may end up stuck in between cars when the lights change.  Recipe for disaster.  How's that going down in Vic ?  I heard that they revoked it in SA.   Sorry to drift off topic.

We don't bother with crap like that
that's how things should be, We might have laws but when it comes down to it trivial shit like this should be overlook. Not in Victoria though, we all know the Vic governments are addicted to fine revenue. After all they sold off all their other income sources.

As for lane splitting I heard the new labour government are going to introduce it, when I don't know.

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Re: Aussie Riders Ticketed for Tinted Helmet Visors?

Post  spanna on Sun 14 Dec 2014, 10:43 am

I have a pinlock visor which is stamped, its my understanding any insert is OK provided the tint is not too dark & not used at night.

With more & more new weekend warrioir mc riders on our roads, the wanker ratio has increased & so has reckless behaviour due to inexperience. Unfortunately this draws the attention of law enforcement management who are under pressure from government to keep driving down accident rates ( this is because the insurance companies actually dictate this to the gov).
All this means is they can cash in on revenue as they can justify "safety".  There are pros & cons with reducing the road fatality count
Pros - less innocent people die on the road, gov makes more money, road workers get to keep their job as they are always changing speed limit signage
Cons - fewer idiots killing themselves on our roads, lower speed limits, more fines, less riding enjoyment.
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Re: Aussie Riders Ticketed for Tinted Helmet Visors?

Post  Ewok1958 on Mon 15 Dec 2014, 9:45 am

Just checked my helmets.  The older HJC helmet has both a sticker on, and is engraved on, its standard clear visor.   Smile
The much newer Shark Vision R2 helmet doesn't have either of these on its standard clear visor.  affraid
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Re: Aussie Riders Ticketed for Tinted Helmet Visors?

Post  2wheelsagain on Mon 15 Dec 2014, 11:37 am

@Ewok1958 wrote:Just checked my helmets.  The older HJC helmet has both a sticker on, and is engraved on, its standard clear visor.   Smile
The much newer Shark Vision R2 helmet doesn't have either of these on its standard clear visor.  affraid

Thats a concern. My Shoei has it printed onto the clear visor and my HJC is a sticker like yours.
Can anyone else with a Shark confirm Dave needs new glasses or not? Laughing

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Re: Aussie Riders Ticketed for Tinted Helmet Visors?

Post  barry_mcki on Mon 15 Dec 2014, 11:39 am

I'm still trying to find a copy of the visor standard (AS1609-1981 with the 1982 Amendment 1), as there has been a lot of BS spread by VicPol themselves about the need for the sticker and engraved/stamped wording.  My understanding is that you need to provide proof that what you have is compliant, if it is not on the visor this becomes difficult on the roadside as you are being stripped searched and undergoing interal examinations for being a criminal biker that we all are.  

The original packaging should have the info either on the box or the little instruction pamphlet as that is a requirement of AS1693-2006, however whether you still have that would be doubtful. Crying or Very sad    It is a point of conjecture that the standard is to deal only with the selling of helmets and that after the sale it does not apply, however I don't think I'd be relying on that when brought before the Beak at Court.

Now what was that old legal saying, "innocent until proven guilty", think we might have lost that in the latest interpretation by VicPol.  Sad

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Re: Aussie Riders Ticketed for Tinted Helmet Visors?

Post  paul on Mon 15 Dec 2014, 6:31 pm

@barry_mcki wrote: if it is not on the visor this becomes difficult on the roadside as you are being stripped searched and undergoing interal examinations for being a criminal biker that we all are.  
 
That almost makes it worthwhile moving to Victoria   Razz Laughing

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Re: Aussie Riders Ticketed for Tinted Helmet Visors?

Post  #Tag on Mon 15 Dec 2014, 7:41 pm

@2wheelsagain wrote:

Can anyone else with a Shark confirm Dave needs new glasses or not? Laughing

I have a Shark.
Dave needs new glasses.

As an aside, my 3 month old Shark Vision R does not have AS markings imprinted on it's standard clear visor.

But Dave still needs new glasses.
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Re: Aussie Riders Ticketed for Tinted Helmet Visors?

Post  2wheelsagain on Mon 15 Dec 2014, 8:11 pm

Tag wrote:
@2wheelsagain wrote:

Can anyone else with a Shark confirm Dave needs new glasses or not? Laughing

I have a Shark.
Dave needs new glasses.

As an aside, my 3 month old Shark Vision R does not have AS markings imprinted on it's standard clear visor.

But Dave still needs new glasses.
lol!

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Re: Aussie Riders Ticketed for Tinted Helmet Visors?

Post  Ewok1958 on Mon 15 Dec 2014, 10:17 pm

Tag wrote:
@2wheelsagain wrote:

Can anyone else with a Shark confirm Dave needs new glasses or not? Laughing

I have a Shark.
Dave needs new glasses.

As an aside, my 3 month old Shark Vision R does not have AS markings imprinted on it's standard clear visor.

But Dave still needs new glasses.

So the shark in your fish tank is ok but you're confirming what I said when it comes to the Shark Vision R!   Wink Wink cheers  

PS: The only glass I need is a glass of red - I'm having a dry week!
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Re: Aussie Riders Ticketed for Tinted Helmet Visors?

Post  Chook on Wed 17 Dec 2014, 4:51 pm

This link was posted on the SBA Facebook page by jimcoleman, it makes for some interesting reading.

http://crossroadz.com.au/OzHelmets/index.html 


It has links to all state legislation relating to helmets and visors. 
I've just browsed through everything relating to SA, and Visors requirements for SA, VIC, NSW and QLD

The following is the extract of the relevant AS for visors which is the standard applicable for ALL Australian jurisdictions

AS1609-1981 Relevant Rider Info Extracts
The standard covers attributes like stability at elevated and lower temperatures, mechanical strength, skin irritation, ventilation, ease of operation etc, mostly very dry reading and in some respects outdated in terms of modern attachment methods and coatings.
The helmet standard AS1698-1988 mandated by the ACCC under Consumer Protection Notice 9 states visors fitted to helmets must meet Australian Standard AS1609-1981. This is a variation from the voluntary AS1698-1988 standard which states AS1609.
AS1609-1981 allows the limited use of tinted and graduated visors and does not specify that a "Standards Mark" label be placed on the visor, at the time this standard was written the label was an option which could be licenced for use from Standards Australia. Packaging, Wrapping and Brochures only are required to have informative labelling.
AS1609-1981 requires marking with the manufacturer, model of helmet the visor is designed to fit and embossed clear or tinted.

AS1609-1981 specifies visors as clear or tinted by the following criteria
 
Clear Lenses are considered "clear" if they have a luminance transmittance of not less than 85%.
Tinted Lenses are permitted if they have a luminance transmittance of not less than 50%.
Gradient-density lenses are permitted if they have a luminance transmittance of not less than 50%

The standard notes, "visors assembled with a tinted strip positioned outside the normal field of view do not require specific labelling. However, the tinted area must comply with the prescribed coloration requirements and optical performance."
AS1609-1981 also states the visor must meet the coloration requirements for AS1607, the standard for sun glass lenses.
Only "integral" visors forming "a single congruous whole with a helmet" are required to be clear under AS1609-1981.
The AS1609-1981 standard does not require the Australian Standard No on the visor.
 
Note
UNECE 22.05 Visor Regulations specify visors as clear if they have a luminance transmittance of 80% or more and allow tinted visors with a luminance transmittance between 50% and 80%. There is no reference to "integral visors".
The regulations have been updated to cover surface treatments and mist retardant treatments unlike AS1609.
In the EU they are suffering problems with non compliant visors in the market place and are acting on it. The proposal includes allowing integral sun screens in helmets and lower luminance transmittance visors.


Based on that, it is only a matter of time before the VIC interpretation is challenged in court
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